Ever since the EliteXC premiered last Saturday night, the MMA community has been talking about the not infamous main event fight between Renzo Gracie and Frank Shamrock. If for some reason you haven’t yet heard about this fight, Renzo Gracie won the fight after Frank Shamrock was disqualified for illegal knee strikes to the head.
Frank Shamrock has always been viewed as a “pioneer” in the sport of MMA and began his career in the Pancrase organization with some excellent matchups against guys like Bas Rutten, Yuki Kondo, and Masakatsu Funaki. Shamrock first fought in the UFC at the first Ultimate Japan in 1997 and had victories in the UFC over guys like Jeremey Horn, Igor Zinoviev, and Tito Ortiz. Shamrock’s last fight in the UFC was his victory over Tito Ortiz in the September of 1999. Since that time, Frank has only fought 3 times against mid-level fighters like Bryan Pardoe, Elvis Sinosic, and Caesar Gracie.
Shamrock’s ego has always been one of his most well-known traits and he has never resisted a chance to let the world know that he considers himself the best light heavyweight fighter in the world. And for a long time know, most of the MMA world has indulged Frank in his claims and given him the benefit of the doubt. We all saw Frank fight in the late 90′s and know what he could do back then, but since 2000 he hasn’t fought anyone of any merit and hasn’t proven he is still on top. But no one really questioned Frank on it, and most of us assumed that he could hang with any of the top fighters if he were given the chance.
Well, after his fight with Renzo Gracie, I think all of that goodwill is now gone and Frank is going to get very little slack from anyone. If Frank wants to make claims that he is the best fighter, he is now going to have to prove it and fight the top fighters. Most people will agree that Renzo was easily dominating Frank in there fight, and that Frank completely embarrased himself and the sport of MMA by his actions both during and after the fight.
Line up, let me fight you. I’ll fight each and every one of you. I’ll fight you each month if need be because if this is how it’s going to be, I don’t even need to train that hard… we can start from small to big and work my way up, Gracie for Gracie.
Those were the words of an indignant Frank Shamrock following his disqualification at the EliteXC even, which was the debut mixed martial arts event on the Showtime Networks.
Shamrock insisted after the fight, that he felt Renzo Gracie had faked his injuries to end the fight early and get the win. Frank said he was setting Gracie up and letting him win the first two rounds so he could knock him out in the third round. No one believed Frank immediately after the fight, and no one believes him now.
In my opinion, Frank does not deserve any kind of big payday in any organization and for organizations like EliteXC and/or Strikeforce to continue promoting Shamrock as a top light heavyweight is laughable. If Frank can fight some halfway decent opponents and actual beat some skilled fighters then we can discuss if he is a top 5 or even top 10 fighter in his weight class. Personally, I hope Phil Baroni knocks Frank into retirement when they fight in April.
I’m curious about your opinions and I’m sure that there are plenty of you on both sides of the fence. Do you still love Frank? Tell me why you do and what he has done to prove he should get the credit he heaps on himself. Do you have Frank? Tell me why and where you think he currently stands in the ranks of light heavyweight fighters.
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Amber
eric
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Yael Grauer
itzFORT
Singh is King
Fizzlesticks
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Studog
ive seen a bunch of old frank fights and he was awesome i seen his recent fight and he wasnt im saying this again u cant judge people of what they have done in the past so i think he aint no top level fighter but he aint low either id say hes a b-
I gotta say that was a good recap of Franks past for some of the guys on the site who dont know much about him, nicely put Dr J.
In an earlier thread we were talking about the “old-school” fighters, about guys like chuck and tito, frank definately goes under that list too. Starting back since Ken Shamrocks lions den days, he was one of the pioneers that built the sport, i dont think anyone will deny that.
About the EliteXC debut… Its pretty clear to everyone who watched the fight that Renzo was controlling the fight, frank was losing the first 2 rounds when the “incident” happened. It was a real bittch move on Franks part, a cheap shot that could have permanantly injured or even killed a great fighter like Renzo. No respect, No sportsmanship, just a pure revenge tactic, “you didnt beat me, i got disqualified” really pathetic.
It was funny Dr J, we talked about Herb Dean a few times and you mantain that hes a good ref whos just unlucky. You didnt even mention herbie in this thread.. Why am i mentioning Herb?? i feel that he was the reason that the fight stopped when it did, obviously Frank was in the wrong when he threw those intentional knees (and they were definately intentional) but after frank dropped that first knee in the back of Renzos head, Herb should have stopped the action, there was a good 2 sec in between the knees. If herb had stepped in after the first knee, Renzo might have been able to continue, but we’ll never know now..
To answer your question, Firstly, i voted for Frank over Baroni, theres a million reasons why i would choose shamrock over baroni. The main reason is conditioning, baroni gasses so fast and Shamrock always has something left in the tank.
Do i still love Frank? (no homo)… Frank Shamrock is a jerk, everyone knows that, he the cockiest guy in mma. Personally, i dont really care, Tito was a jerk, Hughes is a jerk, your talking about guys who were probably bullys while they were growing up.. The guys an *******, but none of this defers the fact thats hes an extremely well conditioned athlete, hes a well rounded fighter, hes technical, hes a cerebral fighter and hes got a solid chin. I dont like shamrock as a person, but hes a good fighter.
Though in the end i agree with you Dr J, i would definatle like to see him fight some tougher competition, wether its tito again, or even some of the younger guys. After what he pulled i dont know if anyone will want to sign him, but i cant RANK him very high since he hasnt had many fights lately, but right now, he wouldnt make my top 10 LHW.
Wouldn’t it be great to Chuck Liddell knock out Frank Shamrock in the first round of a fight? It’ll never happen, but that would be awesome.
Yeah, if you remember correctly…he branched away from the Lions Den to make his own school called the Alliance. It was no secret that his and Ken’s egos couldn’t fit in the same gym together.
All in all, Frank use to be the man…I don’t know what he is now, but he will always have the skill. I think he has much more skill than Ken and is a smarter fighter than Ken ever was . Ken had the physical ability and when that diminished, he didn’t change his gameplan. That being said, don’t count Frank out…Phil has only a punchers chance to win this fight.
@Dr. J im interested to hear your stance on the Herb dean thing this time.
Hey BV, I know you’re asking Dr. J., but you know how I like controversy.
Herb is one of the best in the business. Everyone seems to like Big John, and hate on Dean, but they just can’t imagine the pressure of being the ref…..
Sure, he’s made some questionable calls, but who are we to sit outside the octagon and correct him?
@ BV
I personally think Herb Dean is one of the best MMA refs in the bussines. I have seen plenty of times where Dean has probably saved some fighters lives, or at the very least their careers. Most notably, when he saved the current UFC heavyweight champion Tim Sylvia’s career in his fight against Frank Mir.
There have also been plenty of times in other shows like King of the Cage and WEC where he has definitely make perfect calls at the right time.
Sure, people want to rag on Herb Dean and say he stops fights too early, but I don’t think anyone who has not been a ref in a pro MMA fight can say that. Unless you’ve been in the ring and have the years of experience that Herb Dean has, you can’t say he was wrong. Was Tito vs Ken II an early stoppage? I dont think so. Was Renzo vs. Frank stopped inapporpriately? I dont think so.
The only time so far that I have been pretty disappointed in Herb’s reffing was in the Arlovski vs. Cruz fight. When Herb stopped the action and went to stand both fighters up, he let them stay down because they wouldnt listen to him and stand up. As a result, Arlovski had time to settle and recover and Cruz never saw the restart punch coming.
@Dr. J, no doubt bro, but the thing is..
Its Herbs JOB to stop the fight when it needs to be stopped, he cant be praised for doing his job. The problem is all the times where he failed to do his job as well as he could have.
Now i could bring up a bunch of instances where Herb didnt do his job as well as he could have. But you already know all the fights where his calls were questionable, so thats kind of a pointless debate hehe.
What i want to hear is your interpretation of Herbs performance in this Frank vs Renzo fight. Do you think he did all he could as a ref to make it a fair fight while at the same time protecting both men?
@BVRASP,
The whole debate on the Frank vs Renzo fight is hypotheical really. You can easily argue either side. Sure, Herb could have been more vocal and taken points away after the first knee. He did warn Shamrock verbally after all. I don’t really see any problem with the way the Shamrock vs Gracie fight was handled. To even begin a discussion that the outcome of that fight is Herb Dean’s fault is laughable and that is part of the point of this whole article.
The whole thing is COMPLETELY Frank Shamrock’s fault. Not Herb Dean. Dean just happened to be the ref. if it was Yamasaki or Mazagatti or Yves Levign or whoever else, would any discussion be about the ref?? I dont think so. It just happened to be Herb refereeing the fight and so again, it gives people something to say about him. If someone else was the ref for this fight, I don’t think there would be any discussion at all about mishandling by the officials.
@Dr. J hehe your right, if you see what i said originally, i tried to make it clear that it was Franks fault. Theres no question about that, and the only reason were talking about it IS because its Herb Dean. Personally i think that a knee to the back of the head is worse than a knee to the front of the head, and if Frank had dropped a knee into Renzos face on the ground, there would have been MUCH more than just a verbal warning. They would have stopped the action immediately stood the fighters up, took a point and given Renzo time to recover.
To allow him to take 2 knees before stepping in was in my opinion unacceptable, and to the back of the head??? dam! thank god Renzos ok man, for both Frank and Herb.
I think Frank is responsible for both any injury to Renzo and the outcome of the fight, I dont blame Herb for Frank fighting dirty. I blame Herb for his lack in protecting Renzo..
Ok, I can’t help it… gotta chime in. Shamrock is a ***. It was obvious that he moved his hand out of the way to purposely knee Gracie behind the head……….twice! Then ran his mouth about it.
In my opinion, Herb did exactly what I would have done in his shoes, in this case.
However, I realize that I tend to watch Dean more critically, because he does sometimes to be wishy washy in his calls. If a fighter ignores him, he usually doesn’t enforce his call. Can’t do that!!
maybe since the Arlovski – Cruz fight, Herb is reluctant to get involved and stop the action because of what might happen. He knows he under scrutiny, especially as such a high profile ref, he handles alot of main events.
It a tough job to be a ref, there are some people who will always disagree with the ref in any sport. But in MMA specifically the ref has a HUGE resposibility and it is definatly the most difficult area to try and ref.
Theres alot of pressure on Herb, and its very difficult to redeem yourself in the eyes of fans. Is the pressure getting to Herb? i dont know..
Would i consider him one of the best in the buisness??
definatley not!
FRANK SHAMROCK IS SUCH A *****…. GOOD FIGHTER THOUGH WHY DOES HIS ATTITUDE SUCK SO BAD….. U SHOULD HAVE SEEN HIM ON WALKER TEXAS RANGER… LOL CAN U SAY G@Y…. LOL BUT HE DONT SUCK
i know renzo is a warrior but i dont see a shot to the back of the head i see a shot between the neck and shoulder maybe a little high but not the back of the head
You know me! I’d tell you if I thought you were wrong. But your not. I couldn’t have agreed with you more. Who does Shamrock think he is now?? Tito Oritz would whop him now.
And everyone get off of Herb Dean. The guy has stopped a few fights early (in my opinion). But name one that would have had a different outcome would he have let the fight continue? Be realalistic…
Well frank shamrock is my favorite fighter ever! and i say that he wasn’t getting dominated in the renzo gracie fight because he loves to work on the bottom…didn’t you watch the tito ortiz fight? He was on bottom most of the fight and he ended up making tito TAPOUT…and i know your guys are gonna say well that was back then and this is now….Well in the byron pardoe fight he was on the bottom and ended up making pardoe TAPOUT as well…and when are knees to the head illegal now and days??? i think the sport is getting just a little bit to soft i mean come on! its fighting for gods sake! let them do whatever they want to defeat each other!!!!
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adrian first ur close to my home im in visalia second i dont think the knees he gave gracie were enough so gracie couldnt fight anymore but even if knees to the head were aloud knees to the back of the head or any strike to the back of the head arent
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